Sandy to raise U.S. used-car prices

The estimated 250,000 cars flooded by Superstorm Sandy on the East Coast will drive up used-car prices, even as far away as California.

The supply shortage comes on the heels of an already tightened used-car market in the wake of the recession, when new car sales dried up. Some experts say prices could rise $700 to $1,000 on the typical used car in the short term. Although those effects will be felt most acutely near the flood zone, the increasingly digital and national market for used cars will spread the price shocks widely.

The flood of Sandy-damaged cars further poses the risk that many will wind up in the hands of unscrupulous dealers peddling to unwitting consumers. The vehicles pose both financial and health risks.

"Cars that have been submerged in saltwater, and contaminated by bacteria and various toxins, will soon start to appear all over the country, even in states far from the center of the storm," said Rosemary Shahan, president of Consumers for Auto Reliability and Safety.

Shahan said there were cases of Nissan vehicles flooded by Hurricane Katrina auctioned as "new" as far away as California after that storm.

She urged shoppers to look for signs of flood damage, including engines that hesitate or run roughly, musty interior smells or signs of silt residue or premature rust.

Buyers should also run the vehicle information number through the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System at vehiclehistory.gov. Insurers, salvage pools, auctions and junkyards in all 50 states are required to report all total-loss vehicles to this federal database within 30 days, Shahan said.

For new vehicles or those still within the factory warranty period, shoppers who suspect flood damage should call the manufacturer to ask if they will honor the warranty, which is typically nullified for flooded cars. If the vehicle was registered as a flood vehicle, the manufacturer won't honor the warranty, and the buyer will know there is a problem.

Although properly restored and titled salvage or flooded vehicles can be an "economical option," consumers should understand what they are getting.

"There is always a chance that there will be problems down the road with corrosion or malfunctions in the electrical systems," said Bob Passmore, senior director at the Property Casualty Insurers Assn. of America.

Rising prices caused by the storm might be one reason why consumers would turn to such cheaper options or fall victim to an attractively priced vehicle with hidden flood damage.

Prices are already comparatively high for late-model used cars, according to industry analysts. That's because of the low number of new cars sold in 2009 and 2010, which also slowed the flow of trade-ins into the used-car market. Leases, a major source of used cars, nearly disappeared.

Now the flood of Sandy-damaged cars is putting more pressure on the tight supply of late-model cars. Prices will go up at least 0.5% to 1.5% in December, said Jonathan Banks, an analyst with the National Automobile Dealers Assn. The dealer group said that amounts to a little more than $50 to $175 for the average used vehicle.

Auto information company Edmunds.com has a much higher estimate, saying that used-car prices will climb $700 to $1,000 "in the short term."

The price hikes will be highest on the East Coast but felt nationally, Banks said.

"We have seen a trend for dealers, regardless of where they are located, buying inventory online, and that means that geography is not as important as in the past," he said. "It used to be that dealers would buy cars from a physical auction near their dealership."

Pulling such a huge number of vehicles out of the U.S. fleet will have an effect at the national level, Banks said.

The problem is compounded by at least tens of thousands of new cars that were destroyed both at dealerships and storage yards in parts of New York and New Jersey hit hardest by the storm.

"Many dealers lost a significant amount of inventory. One Honda dealer told me he lost 600 new units," Banks said.

Fisker Automotive Inc., the Anaheim maker of $100,000 plug-in hybrid sports cars, said it lost 338 vehicles, with a retail value of nearly $34 million, at a port storage facility in New Jersey. Toyota Motor Corp. has said it might have lost as many as 4,500 new Toyota, Scion and Lexus vehicles to flooding and storm damage. American Honda Motor Co. said that more than 3,000 new vehicles at its dealers and storage yards suffered flood damage.

All this is going to create problems for consumers in the storm region who need to replace their rides quickly.

"Prices could really shoot up for consumers buying cars right away, because they will run into a severe inventory shortage," Banks said.

The dealers group believes that some replacement buying will start this month but will pick up in December and run through February. Banks expects that about 30% of buyers will purchase new cars and the remainder will choose used cars.

The buying, however, should provide a boost for the economy, said Edmunds.com Chief Economist Lacey Plache.

"Even if 100,000 damaged vehicles are replaced by the end of the year, it could boost auto sales 3% to 4% for the quarter," Plache said. "That has a positive effect on the economy overall."

jerry.hirsch@latimes.com

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Funeral for firefighter: 'We're a brotherhood'

Hundreds of firefighters from Chicago, the suburbs and other locations attend the wake of Herbert Johnson, a Chicago firefighter who was killed while battling a South Side house fire. (Phil Velasquez/Chicago Tribune)

Walking under a huge American flag hoisted by two ladder trucks, hundreds of firefighters in dress uniforms gathered this morning for the funeral of a colleague, Herbert "Herbie" Johnson, a 32-year veteran killed while battling an extra-alarm fire in a Gage Park home.

Crestwood Fire Chief Jon Bruce, 48, stood near a line of fire engines that stretched for nearly a block along Western Avenue near St. Rita of Cascia Shrine Chapel.

"We're a brotherhood," Bruce said as he shook hands with passing firefighters.

"He will be missed by many but forgotten by none," said Lt. Rick Colby, 55, of the 19th battalion, who was assigned to the same fire engine as Johnson the day he died. "It's a somber day for all of us."

Looking around at the thousands of firefighters and police, Tom Munizzi said he was not surprised by the show of support.

"Everyone knew Herbie," said Munizzi, 54, also in the 19th battalion. "It shows you how much he was loved."

The somber crowd grew silent as a pipe and drum corps started playing. They stood at attention, waiting for the funeral procession to begin. Purple ribbons were tied to the trees and light poles along the street in front of the church.

A day earlier, firefighters crowded into the same Southwest Side church for the wake, some standing outside for nearly an hour.

"Anybody who does our job, we have a mutual respect and connection with," Barrington firefighter Kyle Racina, who never met Johnson, said as he stood outside the visitation. "He made the ultimate sacrifice for the job."

The visitation continued through the afternoon and into the evening as a steady stream of mourners waited in a line that sometimes stretched into the parking lot of the Catholic church at 7740 S. Western Ave. Cars, including police vehicles and firetrucks from all over the Chicago region, packed the neighboring streets, which were backed up with traffic for hours.

Johnson's brother, Ted, who also is a Chicago firefighter, said the tragedy still seems surreal. His family is struggling to deal with the loss but grateful for the outpouring of support from across the country, he said.

"Tomorrow, I'm going to have to carry my brother's body to his grave," Johnson said. "But I'm going to have over 4,000 brothers and sisters right there with me."

Inside the chapel Wednesday, a line weaved in and out of the aisles as people chatted, cried and reminisced about Johnson and his large, tightknit family.

Pat Popek laughed as she recalled the time Johnson sported his grammar school basketball jersey at their 25th eighth-grade reunion.

"Believe me, it didn't fit him very well," she said with a smile. "But that was his personality."

A display of photos of Johnson — posing with his touch football team, spending time with his brothers and sisters, and marrying wife Susan — stood beside flowers arranged as firetrucks, footballs and a shamrock.

Johnson's widow greeted well-wishers as she stood next to the dark wooden casket containing the body of her husband, decked out in his dress uniform with a golden cross beside him. A medal for his heroism in the Fire Department also lay in the casket, which was adorned with pink roses.

"He would want us to celebrate his life, not his death," remarked Johnson's 18-year-old nephew, Thaddeus.

The eldest of eight, Johnson was always the leader in his family growing up, making sure his siblings did their homework and chores and stayed out of harm's way, said family friend John Jurcev, 78.

He enjoyed entertaining those around him and could find the good in a sad situation. Often, he spread his happiness with giant bearhugs, sometimes not realizing his own strength, Jurcev joked.

"He would be crushin' me, but I loved it," he said.

Relatives said they have received cards from schoolchildren from across Chicago. Some were on display inside the chapel.

Many of the notes offered prayers and support. That has meant a lot to Johnson's widow and three children, said Dan McMahon, Johnson's brother-in-law.

"They've helped their spirits get through this tragedy," he said.

Ted Johnson called his brother a great example for the city. It's a risk when firefighters leave for work every day, never knowing if they'll see their families again, he said.

"Tomorrow we'll bring him home," his brother said. "It's a great send-off for a true hero."

jmdelgado@tribune.com

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Exclusive: Google Ventures beefs up fund size to $300 million a year

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NHL, union holding labor talks a 3rd straight day

NEW YORK (AP) — The NHL and the players' association resume negotiations Thursday afternoon, the third straight day the sides are meeting in an effort to end the lockout.

This is the 54th day of the lockout, and this week is considered critical for the hockey season to be saved.

Owners and players already have bargained for about 13 hours over two days this week at an undisclosed site in New York. Little information about the talks has been disclosed by either side.

This marks the fourth time in six days that face-to-face negotiations have taken place after both sides rejected proposals Oct. 18.

The lockout began Sept. 16 after the collective bargaining agreement expired. It has forced the cancellation of 327 regular-season games, including the New Year's Day Winter Classic in Michigan.

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Rihanna a rock star on Victoria’s Secret catwalk

NEW YORK (AP) — Rihanna rocked lingerie at Wednesday night’s Victoria’s Secret fashion show in New York, providing the highlight of the live-music soundtrack and holding her own on the catwalk with some of the world’s top models.

And those models even had props, including Adriana Lima‘s ringmaster wand, Doutzen Kroes‘ body cage and several pairs of the oversized wings that the retailer has made its signature. It would be a close contest who got the biggest wings: Toni Garrn’s giant poppy pair or Miranda Kerr’s swan-style feathered pouf. Only Lily Aldridge could boast star-spangled wings that shot out silver sparkles.

Alessandra Ambrosio’s orchid-petal wings might have lacked a little grandeur, but she made up for it with a $ 2.5 million jeweled “floral fantasy bra.”

Still, wearing a sheer pink mini that gave glimpses of her bra, Rihanna sang “Fresh Out the Runway” at the end of the corset-and-garter parade and she was the one to grab the audience’s biggest applause.

The fashion show has become a pre-holiday season tradition for the retailer. CBS will turn it into a one-hour special, which also had performances from Justin Bieber and Bruno Mars, to be shown on Dec. 4.

Lima said she loved opening the show in the ringmaster costume. “The atmosphere of the Victoria’s Secret fashion show is electric,” she said. “It’s so much fun to be able to interact with the audience! What other show will you see Rihanna, Justin Beiber and Bruno Mars on the runway with angels?”

This year’s event had a slight twist. It started with an announcer noting that Victoria’s Secret and CBS had each made a donation to relief efforts for Superstorm Sandy, and a thank you to the National Guard members who are based out of the Lexington Avenue Armory that has for years been home to the show.

Mostly, though, models are encouraged to smile, ham it up and show off the extra time at the gym that most admit to in the weeks beforehand. “It’s highly televised, and you take that into consideration,” said model Joan Smalls ahead of the show. “This is kind of not the same as other runways. You have to prepare your body: No. 1 is the wings are heavy, and No. 2 is you have to be comfortable with your body because the camera will pick up on it if you’re not comfortable and confident.”

There’s an emphasis on glitz, skin and dramatic production here, not wearable undergarment trends for typical Victoria’s Secret shoppers. It was divided into six sections: Circus, complete with acrobats, contortionists and a sword eater; Dangerous Liaisons; Pink Is Us; Silver Screen Angels; Angels in Bloom; and Calendar Girls, which allowed Bruno Mars to serenade a model for each month of the year.

For his first song, “Beauty and the Beat,” Bieber, wearing low-slung white pants and a white leather studded vest, sat alone with his guitarist in the mellowest part of the show. For “As Long As You Love Me,” however, he brought in backup dancers and interacted with the models while moving around a giant makeshift pinball machine.

“It’s like a dream come true,” said Bieber on the pink carpet before the show. “I would rather be here than anywhere in the world.”

___

AP reporter John Carucci contributed to this report.

___

Samantha Critchell tweets fashion at http://www.twitter.com/AP_Fashion

Entertainment News Headlines – Yahoo! News

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Experts raise concerns over superhuman workplace

LONDON (AP) — Performance-boosting drugs, powered prostheses and wearable computers are coming to an office near you — but experts warned in a new report Wednesday that too little thought has been given to the implications of a superhuman workplace.

Academics from Britain's leading institutions say attention needs to be focused on the consequences of technology which may one day allow — or compel — humans to work better, longer and harder. Here's their list of upgrades that might make their way to campuses and cubicles in the next decade:

BRAIN BOOSTERS

Barbara Sahakian, a Cambridge neuropsychology professor, cited research suggesting that 16 percent of U.S. students already use "cognitive enhancers" such as Ritalin to help them handle their course loads. Pilots have long used amphetamines to stay alert. And at least one study has suggested that the drug modafinil could help reduce the number of accidents experienced by shift workers.

But bioethicist Jackie Leach Scully of northern England's Newcastle University worries that the use of such drugs might focus on worker productivity over personal well-being.

"Being more alert for longer doesn't mean that you'll be less stressed by the job," she said. "It means that you'll be exposed to that stress for longer and be more awake while doing it."

WEARABLE COMPUTERS

The researchers also noted so-called "life-logging" devices like Nike Inc.'s distance-tracking shoes or wearable computers such as the eyeglasses being developed by Google Inc. The shoes can record your every step; the eyeglasses everything you see. Nigel Shadbolt, an expert in artificial Intelligence at southern England's University of Southampton, said such devices were as little as 15 years away from being able to record every sight, noise and movement over an entire human life.

So do you accept if your boss gives you one?

"What does that mean for employee accountability?" Shadbolt asked.

BIONIC LIMBS — AND BEYOND

The report also noted bionic limbs like the one used this week by amputee Zac Vawter to climb Chicago's Willis Tower or exoskeletons like the one used earlier this year by partially paralyzed London Marathon participant Claire Lomas. It also touched on the development of therapies aimed at sharpening eyesight or cochlear implants meant to enhance hearing.

Scully said any technology that could help disabled people re-enter the workforce should be welcomed but society needs to keep an eye out for unintended consequences.

"One of the things that we know about technology hitting society is that most of the consequences were not predicted ahead of time and a lot of things that we worry about ahead of time turn out not to be problems at all," she said. "We have very little idea of how these technologies will pan out."

THE PRESSURIZED WORKPLACE

The report was drawn up by scientists from The Academy of Medical Sciences, the British Academy, the Royal Academy of Engineering and the Royal Society.

"We're not talking science fiction here," said Genevra Richardson, the King's College law professor who oversaw the report. "These technologies could influence our ability to learn or perform tasks, they could influence our motivation, they could enable us to work in more extreme conditions or in old age, or they could facilitate our return to work after illness or disability .... Their use at work also raises serious ethical, political and economic questions."

Scully said workers may come under pressure to try a new memory-boosting drug or buy the latest wearable computer.

"In the context of a highly pressurized work environment, how free is the choice not to adopt such technologies?" she said.

Union representatives appeared taken aback by some of the experts' predictions. One expressed particular disquiet at the possibility raised by the report that long-distance truck drivers might be asked to take alertness drugs for safety reasons.

"We would be very, very against anything like that," said James Bower, a spokesman for Britain's United Road Transport Union. "We can't have a situation where a driver is told by his boss that he needs to put something in his body."

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Online:

The report: http://royalsociety.org/policy/projects/human-enhancement

Raphael Satter can be reached on: http://raphae.li/twitter

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Rihanna a rock star on Victoria's Secret catwalk

NEW YORK (AP) — Rihanna rocked lingerie at Wednesday night's Victoria's Secret fashion show in New York, providing the highlight of the live-music soundtrack and holding her own on the catwalk with some of the world's top models.

And those models even had props, including Adriana Lima's ringmaster wand, Doutzen Kroes' body cage and several pairs of the oversized wings that the retailer has made its signature. It would be a close contest who got the biggest wings: Toni Garrn's giant poppy pair or Miranda Kerr's swan-style feathered pouf. Only Lily Aldridge could boast star-spangled wings that shot out silver sparkles.

Alessandra Ambrosio's orchid-petal wings might have lacked a little grandeur, but she made up for it with a $2.5 million jeweled "floral fantasy bra."

Still, wearing a sheer pink mini that gave glimpses of her bra, Rihanna sang "Fresh Out the Runway" at the end of the corset-and-garter parade and she was the one to grab the audience's biggest applause.

The fashion show has become a pre-holiday season tradition for the retailer. CBS will turn it into a one-hour special, which also had performances from Justin Bieber and Bruno Mars, to be shown on Dec. 4.

Lima said she loved opening the show in the ringmaster costume. "The atmosphere of the Victoria's Secret fashion show is electric," she said. "It's so much fun to be able to interact with the audience! What other show will you see Rihanna, Justin Beiber and Bruno Mars on the runway with angels?"

This year's event had a slight twist. It started with an announcer noting that Victoria's Secret and CBS had each made a donation to relief efforts for Superstorm Sandy, and a thank you to the National Guard members who are based out of the Lexington Avenue Armory that has for years been home to the show.

Mostly, though, models are encouraged to smile, ham it up and show off the extra time at the gym that most admit to in the weeks beforehand. "It's highly televised, and you take that into consideration," said model Joan Smalls ahead of the show. "This is kind of not the same as other runways. You have to prepare your body: No. 1 is the wings are heavy, and No. 2 is you have to be comfortable with your body because the camera will pick up on it if you're not comfortable and confident."

There's an emphasis on glitz, skin and dramatic production here, not wearable undergarment trends for typical Victoria's Secret shoppers. It was divided into six sections: Circus, complete with acrobats, contortionists and a sword eater; Dangerous Liaisons; Pink Is Us; Silver Screen Angels; Angels in Bloom; and Calendar Girls, which allowed Bruno Mars to serenade a model for each month of the year.

For his first song, "Beauty and the Beat," Bieber, wearing low-slung white pants and a white leather studded vest, sat alone with his guitarist in the mellowest part of the show. For "As Long As You Love Me," however, he brought in backup dancers and interacted with the models while moving around a giant makeshift pinball machine.

"It's like a dream come true," said Bieber on the pink carpet before the show. "I would rather be here than anywhere in the world."

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AP reporter John Carucci contributed to this report.

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Samantha Critchell tweets fashion at http://www.twitter.com/AP_Fashion

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McDonald's sales drop, first time since 2003

McDonald's Corp. reported its first decline in monthly U.S. same store sales in nine years Thursday, as the chain began to suffer problems plaguing the rest of the fast food industry for several years.

Sales at restaurants open more than a year declined 2.2 percent. Same store sales also declined in Europe, 2.2 percent, and the Asia Pacific, Middle East and Africa region, 2.4 percent.

The chain cited lower demand and greater competition for the lower sales. While hamburger competitors Burger King and Wendy’s were walloped by the onset of the recession, both  have changed hands in recent years and launched new menu items that better compete with McDonald’s including expanded breakfast offerings, improved coffee options and more innovative salads.

"Though October's sales results reflect the pervasive challenges of today's global marketplace, I am confident that our strategies and the adjustments we are making in response to the current business headwinds will build sales momentum and drive sustained, profitable growth," McDonald's CEO Don Thompson said. 

Although the decline is historic for the world's largest restaurant chain, which has been on a roll since the beginning of its historic turnaround in 2003, it was not unexpected. Analysts have been tempering expectations and downgrading the stock for months.

To rev up sales, McDonald's has been working to emphasize value in markets around the world.

In the U.S., for example, McDonald's is stepping up advertising for its Dollar Menu after its attempt to market an "Extra Value Menu" for slightly higher prices fell flat. But the company said Thursday that the efforts were offset by "modest consumer demand" and competition.

In particular, McDonald's is facing stiffer competition from longtime rivals Burger King and Wendy's, which are both in the midst of reviving their brands with new ad campaigns and improved menus. Taco Bell, owned by Yum Brands Inc., is also enjoying growth with the help of new offerings such as it Doritos Locos Tacos and higher-end Cantina Bell bowls and burritos.

Stock slipped 0.99 percent in pre-market trades, to $86 in early trading. McDonald's hit an all-time high of $101.74 in February.

Baird analyst David Tarantino maintained an outperform rating on McDonald's, saying in a research note that, "We are cautiously optimistic that better trends can emerge as McDonald's gets past a wall of challenging comparisons in upcoming months."

Tarrantino added that though results "could remain soft" through early 2013, "we see opportunity for better performance to emerge in 2013 as a whole," because of emphasis on value offerings, lower ingredient costs, and reduced currency impact.

eyork@tribune.com | Twitter: @emilyyork

- Reuters contributed to this report

MCD Net Income Quarterly data by YCharts

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Day after: Obama victory, but 'fiscal cliff' looms

Fresh from a decisive re-election win, President Barack Obama returns from the campaign trail on Wednesday with little time to savor victory, facing urgent economic challenges, a looming fiscal showdown and a still-divided Congress able to block his every move.

Obama defeated Republican challenger Mitt Romney on Tuesday night in a grueling presidential race and used his acceptance speech in front of a huge cheering crowd in Chicago to strike a conciliatory note toward his political opponents.

But in the cold light of the 2012 election's morning-after, it was clear that even though voters have endorsed a second Obama term, the president will have a hard time translating that into a mandate to push forward with his agenda.

Americans chose to preserve the status quo of divided government in Washington. Obama's fellow Democrats retained control of the Senate and Republicans kept their majority in the House of Representatives, giving them power to curb the president's legislative ambitions on everything from taxes to immigration reform.

This is the political reality that Obama - who won a far narrower victory over Romney than his historic election as the country's first black president in 2008 - faces when he returns to Washington later on Wednesday.

House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, spoke of a dual mandate. "If there is a mandate, it is a mandate for both parties to find common ground and take steps together to help our economy grow and create jobs," he said.

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky had a more harsh assessment.

"The voters have not endorsed the failures or excesses of the president's first term," McConnell said. "They have simply given him more time to finish the job they asked him to do together" with a balanced Congress.

Obama's more narrow victory was nothing like the jubilant celebration in 2008, when his hope-and-change election as the nation's first black president captivated the world. This time, Obama ground it out with a stay-the-course pitch that essentially boiled down to a plea for more time to make things right and a hope that Congress will be more accommodating than in the past.

The most pressing challenges immediately ahead for the 44th president are all too familiar: an economy still baby-stepping its way toward full health; 23 million people out of work or in search of better jobs; civil war in Syria; a menacing standoff over Iran's nuclear program.

Sharp differences with Republicans in Congress on taxes, spending, deficit reduction, immigration and more await. While Republicans control the House, Democrats have at least 52 votes in the Senate and Republicans 45. One newly elected independent isn't saying which party he'll side with, and races in Montana and North Dakota were not yet called.

Votes also were being counted Wednesday in the Montana and Washington gubernatorial races.

Obama's list of promises to keep includes many holdovers he was unable to deliver on in his first term, such as rolling back tax cuts for upper-income people, overhauling immigration policy and reducing federal deficits. Six in 10 voters said in exit polls that taxes should be increased, and nearly half of voters said taxes should be increased on incomes over $250,000, as Obama has called for.

"It's very clear from the exit polling that a majority of Americans recognize that we need to share responsibility for reducing the deficit," Maryland Rep. Chris Van Hollen, the top Democrat on the House Budget Committee, told CNN. "That means asking higher-income earners to contribute more to reducing the deficit."

Even before Obama gets to his second inaugural on Jan. 20, he must deal with the threatened "fiscal cliff." A combination of a $600 billion package automatic of tax increases and steep across-the-board spending cuts are set to take effect in January if Washington doesn't quickly reach a budget deal. Experts have warned that the economy could tip back into recession without an agreement.

Newly elected Democrats signaled they want compromise the avoid the fiscal cliff.

Sen.-elect Tim Kaine, a former Virginia governor who defeated Republican George Allen, said on NBC's "Today" show that voters sent a message they want "cooperative government." But he also says the election results show that the public doesn't want "all the levers in one party's hands" on Capitol Hill.

From Massachusetts, Elizabeth Warren said on "CBS This Morning" that those who voted for her opponent, Republican Sen. Scott Brown, expressed a desire for lawmakers to work together. She says: "I heard that loud and clear."

December surprise?

Investors have had a tendency to downplay problems emanating from Washington only to find themselves surprised when lawmakers cannot get together on critical issues.

The market reacted harshly to Washington gridlock after failed legislation to backstop the banks in 2008 and again during protracted talks to raise the U.S. debt ceiling in 2011. Strategists said a re-elected Obama would be keen to avoid another bruising repeat.

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End in sight? NHL, players bargain deep into night

NEW YORK (AP) — The NHL and the players' association did all their talking at the bargaining table, far away from the public eye. With another round of talks scheduled just one day after more than seven hours of negotiations, perhaps progress is being made.

There was already common ground before negotiations on a new collective bargaining agreement began Tuesday and lasted deep into the night. The players' union adhered to the league's request to keep the meeting location in New York a secret, and with no outside distractions, the sides talked and talked from afternoon until night.

Once they broke for the day, neither side gave any hint of what was discussed or if progress was made, but both pointed to the next round of talks.

"With meetings scheduled to resume Wednesday, the league will not characterize the substance or detail of the discussions until their conclusion," NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said in a statement.

The marathon session highlighted Day 52 of the lockout and provided at least a glimmer of hope that maybe it will end soon.

Daly and union special counsel Steve Fehr, who conducted a long one-on-one session on Saturday, were joined on Tuesday by Commissioner Gary Bettman, NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr, a handful of team owners, and 13 players including Pittsburgh Penguins captain Sidney Crosby, who has been an active participant in the process.

The union did its talking Tuesday before negotiations began.

"We're hopeful that we'll start bargaining and we'll continue bargaining until we find a way to make a deal," Donald Fehr said early Tuesday afternoon. "Sometimes that goes in rather long sessions with short breaks and sometimes you take a few hours or half a day or a day to work on things before you come back together. I don't know which it will be.

"We certainly hope we'll be continuing to meet on a regular basis. I hope they do, too. I'm just not making any predictions."

His hope was met — at least for one day.

Fehr's brother, Steve, met with Daly on Saturday in a secret location, and neither provided many details of what was discussed, but both agreed that the meeting was productive. That was proven when the sides agreed to quickly meet again Tuesday. Until Saturday, there had been no negotiations since talks broke off Oct. 18.

"The players' view has always been to keep negotiating until we find a way to get agreement and you sort of stay at it day by day, so it's very good to be getting back to the table," Donald Fehr said. "We hope that this time it produces more progress than we've seen in the past, and that we can find a way to make an agreement and to get the game back on the ice as soon as possible.

"We're hopeful that we'll start bargaining and we'll continue bargaining until we find a way to make a deal."

Time is becoming a bigger factor every day a deal isn't reached. The lockout, which went into effect Sept. 16 after the previous collective bargaining agreement expired, has already forced the cancellation of 327 regular-season games — including the New Year's Day outdoor Winter Classic in Michigan.

Whether any of the games that have been called off through Nov. 30 can be rescheduled if an agreement is made soon hasn't been determined. But the NHL has already said that a full 82-game season won't be played.

Back in October, the players' association responded to an NHL offer with three of its own, but all of those were quickly dismissed by the league — leading to nearly three weeks without face-to-face discussions. Daly and Steve Fehr kept in regular contact by phone and agreed to meet again last weekend.

The NHL has moved toward the players' side in the contentious issue of the "make-whole" provision, which involves the payment of player contracts that are already in effect and whose share of the economic pie that money will come from.

Other core economic issues — mainly the split of hockey-related revenue — along with contract lengths, arbitration and free agency will also need to be agreed upon before a deal can be reached.

The players' association accepted a salary cap in the previous CBA, which wasn't reached until after the entire 2004-05 season was canceled because of a lockout. The union doesn't want to absorb the majority of concessions this time after the NHL recorded record revenue that exceeded $3 billion last season.

"The issues the players are concerned about remain the same," Donald Fehr said. "The players haven't seen any need to go backward, given the history of the last negotiations and given the level of revenue increase since then. Player-contracting rights are very important to them.

"Before we have any agreement, both sides have to see everything on paper and make sure that they all understand it right. That's about all I can say about it at this stage. I don't want to prejudge or indicate that I have any particular impressions or expectations. That's what the meetings are for."

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